Existing Film Scanning Machines

Through work I have access to a Kinetta, Scanity, and there is an older Arriscan and a Filmfrabriek nearby; if you have questions about those, I can try to answer them.

Wonderful news! One question I have is what they are using to detect a frame. The Kinetta looks like it has several light sensors in a column. Can you verify? Any idea what kind of sensors those are?

Also, any pics of the gates on each machine would be greatly appreciated. That’s my next design challenge.

Thanks for offering, Martin!

Hi Martin, I have a question about the FilmFabriek unit. I have seen the results of their post-processing software and it looks very nice. Have you spent any time with it? I wish something like that was available as a retail product. Do you have any observations or comments? thx!

The Kinetta uses a laser that is shone on the film, and the reflection is measured. For each film type, one has to do a calibration. The height of the laser is adjustable, therefore one can use pretty much any format from 8mm to 35mm, incl 22 and 9.5 mm.
The problem with this approach is that when having film with mixed stock, it can lose track of what is a sprocket and what isn´t. You end up having to do a lot of clicking trying to keep the image in frame during scanning.

Other than that I am not sure as to which sensors you refer to - the Kinetta has a LED with R, G, B and White.

The gate on the Scanity has a patent, it is completely round and uses a line scanner; thus the film stays very flat on the surface.

Vintagefilm - I have not used the FilmFabriek scanner myself, so cannot comment on the software. sorry.

Thanks, @Martin_Weiss. Kinetta is using the same approach I was planning on using, it seems. It’s good to know that it’s not always reliable with mixed stock. Perhaps I can come up with something that works for that.

Did not know the Scanity had a patent, either!

M

Looks like DFT (makers of Scanity) hold a couple of patents:

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=pts&hl=en&q="Digital+film+technology"

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I believe the newest Kinetta software no longer uses the perforation sensor, so there are o problems with mixed film stocks.

Nope! :wink: The Kinetta uses both a precision encoder (80K counts per rev) and pattern matching software. Perfs are nice but not necessary.

Thanks, @BobKanter21! Can you elaborate on what “pattern matching software” means?

I have a an encoder on the machine now with 200 counts per rev. It was only meant to be temporary but I could see it being of use if I knew how it was being used on the Kinetta. I just assumed that sense film shrinkage means you can’t rely on frames being standard from reel to reel that I would have to rely on perfs. But repaired perfs can be unreliable…so I’m still unhappy with that solution but without a viable alternative at the moment.

Any light you can shed would be great!

M

https://barbaraflueckiger.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/flueckigeretal_investigationfilmmaterialscannerinteraction_20181.pdf

An interesting study of several high-end scanners. Well done.

Bob is indeed right. I’m currently testing the beta software, and the stabilisation works without the laser and generally much better.

Matthew - in the new software you mark an area that you define as the “active” pattern search area. Kinetta then compares this pattern to the current pattern, and guesstimates the proper framing. In my limited experience so far this works very well, incl. missing/torn sprockets.

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This link will probably disappear in the future, when revisions are made (I’m part of Barbara Flückiger’s research team). A more lasting link is:

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I think the word you are looking for is “calculates.”

Thanks Martin. Very informative links.

Thanks for that explanation. Sounds like an additional camera. I wonder how this impacts the processing power needed to run the machine and the overall cost.

The processing is done inside a PC; we have a ~5k camera, with the old software we could run at max 12 fps, now it is 9.75 fps with the new algorithm.

You can add the Lasergraphics Director 4K, the Lasergraphics Director 10K (their newer model), the Scanstation Personal (starts at $50K I believe plus the setup and training costs) and the Arriscan 4K/6K is now called the Arriscan Classic with the latest model being the Arriscan XT. The cost of a new Scanstation, around $170K for the most common options (plus setup and training). Since 2019 they come with 4K and 6.5K sensor options (maybe other options as well). I think the full Kinetta cost is more like $140K now, but I could be mistaken and obviously the options will affect the price.

Excellent suggestions, thanks @filmkeeper! I will add those and start a list of the DIY machines that have been posted on these forums as well.

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Just a correction the Scanstation is priced starting around the $170K mark I think including 2 or 3 gates, that doesn’t include the set-up and mandatory training fees. The Director (Lasergraphics Director 10K not “Scanstation” Director 10K) would cost considerably more than that I’ve no idea what a quote on the D10K would be. The Director 4K’s are still supported by Lasergraphics, and still a very much an in-use scanner. From what I heard no company with one thought the 5K JAI cameras were an improvement.

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Thanks for that. The list is editable by anyone so feel free to make edits as you see fit. And let me know if it doesn’t let you edit for some reason :slight_smile: