Kinograph 2.0 "Town hall"

I am really enjoying the kinograph forum. I prefer this over some based on Discord, (maybe I am too old school to grasp the layout). I did have a question or thought. Is there an overall “objective”? What are the specifications of the kinograph 2.0? There are a lot of folks with different ideas and needs, which is partly what makes this useful and interesting, but it doesn’t lead to a specific set of solutions. It doesn’t have to, but if one of the goals is an open source design it is not quite getting there. I am not trying to be critical, just an observation.

Some thoughts I’ve had for defining a kinograph 2.0 are as follows:

  • Is there a singulary design or possibly multiple designs.

  • What are the general specifications or design goals?

  • Is it a complete DIY, based on 3D printing, or modification / hacking of old machines

  • What film formats are to be supported 8, S8, 9.5mm, 16mm, 35mm, 70mm?

  • Will one machine be used to do all or multiple formats, or a subset.

  • Is there a build cost goal?

  • Future-proof designs. In the time this forum has started multiple advances in compute and sensors especially have taken place. It would be nice to have the ability to upgrade as things evolve.

  • Collectively there is a lot of talent a resources here, so perhaps leveraging that might be a goal. Along this line of thought, for example, lenses and sensors frequently come up. A uniform set of tests would allow the forum to have a way of doing apples to apples comparisons. Lenses can cost a lot of money, at an individual level it can be a costly process to test a bunch of different lens (and sensor) combinations. If there was a uniform test procedure, we could share that information more readily.

  • Also developing some best practices guides (whether it be cleaning film, cleaning optics, 3D printing, post processing files, etc.)

I hope this doesn’t sound critical. Best regards to all, and thanks for sharing.

I don’t know if this has already been posted, the link to last week Sunday Zoom meeting: https://youtu.be/mhgIeIf0f20?si=YTpM4sN5zpOop1Q- it will answer some of @John_Bower 's questions?

1 Like

Great post, John. We are on the same page re: collectivizing talent. You may remember from the Town Hall that there will be an Engineering board to help guide that process so that we have focused goals and objectives.

As for the answer to your questions…you’re right…I have not explicitly laid those out. This is mostly because I’m still focused on getting the machine I have now to work…but it means I’m missing out on input from the group. So I will commit to publishing answers to your questions, and more by this coming Sunday, March 9. It’s all in my head, I just have to get it down on paper. I’ll post it to the forums so we can have discussion thread about it and make adjustments as the group sees fit. If needed, we can even schedule a town hall specifically for a ratification of the goals and tenets of the design overall.

If that’s confusing…just give me until Sunday and we’ll take it from there :slight_smile:

Thank you! I will be better about treating the forums as a place to post social links, too, as per feedback in the town hall. I appreciate the assistance, @Moevi.nl . It takes a village.

Speaking of, @Manuel_Angel . I will ask my forums admin about providing multi-language support, too. And please email me (info@kinograph.cc) about the notification issues so I can make sure they’re resolved for you. I want you to be able to communicate in a way that is easy for you!

2 Likes

Thank you very much for your interest, @matthewepler.

I think that enabling written transcription of the audio would be very helpful.

For my part, I think it would be possible to tell my Zoom client to translate the transcripts into Spanish, my native language.

The other way around is a bit more complicated, although I could use Google Translate to translate the answers and then send them to the Zoom meeting via chat.

Regards

1 Like

I think it might be related to this banner, which has been up for months at the top of the site:

I haven’t received updates from the forum in, well, I can’t even remember how long.

1 Like

So I watched through the townhall video. I am sorry I wasn’t able to make it.

A bit about me:
I have a BS in Mechanical Engineering from Lehigh University in Bethlehem PA. I graduated back in the 80’s.

I have an engineering and consulting firm. We do a lot of design/build project for mostly scientific and medical devices. Many years ago we did quite a bit of work for a start up company in Silicon Valley, it was called Foveon, which was later acquired by Sigma.

We’ve done a lot of CNC machined components in house, since I have had to machine parts that I’ve designed, I have developed a keen sense of how to design a part for ease of manufacture. One thing I have noticed as a common them (and this is not meant as a criticism, just an observation) is there is an avoidance of custom machined components. This is understandable, as it is not easy to find a source to do custom work, it can be costly in one-off quantities, and it really helps to have some knowledge of the process.

So, with that it mind, I was really intrigued by a few things brought up in the town hall. One, the development of a kit. If machined components were done in batches of 20-100, the cost can drop dramatically. I am leaning towards developing my design, using the resources I have, so machining parts is not a huge issue.

The one thing I have been thinking about a lot is the gate. My interest was especially piqued when Grace McKay? (I couldn’t read the text in the video very well) started talking about the gates she had. I would really like to talk with her.

For fun, I know pictures can be fun to look at. The attached to a machined truncated icosahedra, I designed this in SoliWorks and we built a bunch of these for fun. It’s about tennis ball sized, assembled with 2-56 screws (~2 mm), there are 12 pentagonal tiles, 20 hexagonal tiles and 60 screws, with 60 custom internal retaining nuts. I think I can bring some value to the group.

Deathstar-ICON
tri-lobe4

3 Likes

… same with me. :upside_down_face:

Hello everyone,

I recently started a topic on this forum to introduce my latest all-format scanner.
Unfortunately, my language skills prevent me from actively participating in recent discussions. However, I want you to know that I carefully read all of your contributions.

My Machine:

My technical approach differs significantly from the solutions proposed here.
Over the years, I have digitized several hundred kilometers of film in various formats.
Drawing from this experience, I have continuously sought ways to improve my machines. This has led to numerous iterations and redesigns over a period of about ten years.

To avoid rebuilding my scanner every time I made a modification, I designed it with a modular structure, allowing individual components to be adjusted or replaced independently. I also ensured that all parts could be sourced off the shelf, eliminating the need for custom machining. For any additional components, a 3D printer proved invaluable.
From the design phase, I considered the mechanical constraints of plastic parts, ensuring that friction points relied on ball bearings. However, in cases where necessary, certain parts can still be machined in metal.

I believe that most people on this forum are looking for a tool that is easy to use, fast, reliable, and capable of delivering excellent results.
Achieving a balance between these aspects is essential.
Avoiding unnecessary complexity does not mean compromising on image quality. Likewise, overcomplicating things with excessive theoretical analysis does not necessarily lead to better results.

Early on, I realized that digitization speed is a key factor.
Since scanning requires constant supervision, running a scanner overnight at just a few frames per second was not a viable solution for me. That’s why I strongly advocate for continuous scanning, where the film moves without stopping.

Cameras capable of this require some investment (starting at around $350 for models with a Sony sensor). The key requirements are speed (at least 15 fps), reliability, and ease of use, without the need for complex programming—especially since many manufacturers offer free, high-performance capture software.

To detect perforations, I chose a reflective laser with a 0.1mm beam, which works exceptionally well regardless of the film’s material or transparency.
The only requirements for this approach are very bright lighting and the shortest possible exposure time.

The film is transported forward and backward by two direct-drive stepper motors without gearboxes.
No tensioner is needed for continuous film feed, simplifying the design. Film tension is minimal, as the driven spool spins freely.

This is my humble contribution to your project.

I’ve been thinking about this approach too. Stepper motors are, for the most part a very inexpensive component. The 3D printer explosion has brought down the cost of many motion control components like steppers, the drive electronics, drive belts and pulleys etc… The motors can be disabled and they still introduce a bit of drag. It also give you the option of reversing in a precise manner if needed.

If you look at my project, you’ll see that the driven reel is mechanically decoupled from the switched-off stepper motor, which limits the pull on the film. There is still a slight adjustable friction in the clutch.

Sorry for being late to the party!

The Kinograph is 35/16 only. Good. Best to stick with dual-format, attempting to do everything in a single machine would prove too difficult. The 35/16 Kinograph needs to support up to 2,000ft reels whereas a S8+R8+9.5mm Kinograph would only need to support up to 400ft, ideally with a short film path.

Optical module. My opinion is that you should buy the cameras wholesale pair them with a lens, mount them on a track and sell it as a part. I reckon only the 5K and 2K cameras should be supported, at least initially, pick the manufacturer you want (Flir? Emergent Vision Tech?) and stick with Pregius S for now. Each time you add support for a new camera - who is going to be the one who provides the support for it? The end-user? That’s why it’s better to define the optical module and control it IMO.

The track it gets mounted on for focusing should probably be a machined part.

Film Cleaning. Ideally the design should facilitate an optional in-line Kelmar Christie film cleaner. Isopar-G will dry on take-up.

The light is being re-engineered. Excellent. You ideally want someone who will manufacture the light as a part. Letting them work out the diffusion and cooling for it will mean you don’t have to worry about it. In answer to your question - in the Bayer scanners they all manufacture their own lights and they are Red + Green + Blue + White full spectrum, and flash discreetly on each capture. They have liquid cooling because they make them very bright. Getting someone to engineer it as a part will provide good value without breaking the bank on the cost of the device.

Colour inversion is done using their own in-house developed LUTs that are trade-secret and embedded in their closed-source software. Same with debayering.

Software. The machine vision cameras are not video cameras, you have to debayer yourself unless you want nearest-neighbour debayering! That should be a priority to get sorted out in the workflow software wise. There are free solutions (eg this) but you need a way to convert raw camera to Prores that does an acceptable debayering job that the average Kinograph operator can use.

Worry about that first and then colour inversion later.

There should be clear written goals for the host software capability, and it will take time to realise those goals.

Split-reels. You’ll need retaining platters as a part. Maybe not right away, but you will need them even if the machine is tilted back.

Film gates/skid plates. You want a warped-film clamp/gate as well, but that can come after the initial design.

The host computer. Once you get going with film capture software, you’ll find that the hardware requirements for the host computer may go up depending on how much you’re asking the computer to do. The old-hat scanners of the past like the Spirits used internal logic boards to do the image processing etc not the host computer. The preference with the modern scanners is to use the host computer instead. Power requirements go down, the engineering is simpler, and technical specifications for the host PC go up.

The Kinograph doesn’t have logic boards (other than the bare minimum to run the motors etc), so anything and everything that isn’t done in the machine itself has to be done either by the host computer or manually by the user. Film tensioning? Focusing the camera? Frame registration?

The 8mm machine needs to be cheap. People complain that the Pictor is too expensive! Film-Digital sell existing projector telecine kits dirt-cheap.The aim should not be to undercut Filmfabriek on an 8mm device.

It should not be the priority IMO as the Pictor already exists, it is affordable, and any 8mm Kinograph device would be far more limited.

Non-profit vs for-profit. While I support the idea, I’m lost on the details. The companies that make the cheapest devices (Blackmagic, Filmfabriek, Ventura Images etc) price their machines with support included for free. So what does product support look like, and how is that factored into the business plan? Filmfabriek is basically run by volunteers, but it’s not a registered non-profit organisation.

Modules. Keep it to a minimum. You have a modular design - but I would suggest developing just one light, perhaps two optical modules, and one film transport module (at least initially). The more options you give, the more complicated the device becomes, and the more expensive it will be to provide technical support to the user.

I hope I don’t sound too critical or anything, my concern is that your goal seems to be that the user builds the device to spec, and that any changes/modifications they make they need to work out on their own. That’s perfectly fine, but the Kinograph itself needs to be a singular well-defined product/device with clearly defined parameters. Without that, the host software (yet to be written) will never work.

I think you have many valid points. With respect to 35/16, I might ask, is the target “market” (to use a commercial term) for a combination machine. I might be worth considering whether a design that can be switched back and forth is a majority of the market, or do most customer’s do either 35mm or 16mm but rarely if ever, both. Those facilities that do both, might do better with one of each machine, instead of a 16/35 machine.

Just thinking out loud, wouldn’t the 4X the light output on a 35mm machine as you would on a 16mm machine. Also, you would have to accommodate much larger reels (I am assuming), so the 16mm would be oversized in all dimensions in order to accommodate both formats.

This is not to say modules wouldn’t be usable on both machines, it just might be better to not try to accommodate the two formats on one chassis. Consider too, that it is likely, that 35mm format has a bigger budget for a telecine, whereas 16mm likely less so.

I did. I just didn’t post it since it was such a long meeting. I used Zoom’s AI feature to create a summary doc. I haven’t checked it for accuracy, but here is the link.

Thanks for the screenshot! I’ll let the admin know. I’m in the process of upgrading the forums with the admin with new features and we will address this as part of that. Hopefully happening this week.

Sounds great, Roland. Where is the best place to find pictures or video of your machine?

Here, on this forum

This scanner seems to me to meet many of the criteria listed. It’s an atypical design (especially for the film holder), but it’s a solution that works!

The video is a little dated, and improvements have been made since then.
https://youtu.be/hTgLW7tkM1A

1 Like

To address questions above re: design process and specs, I’ve created a new thread: Kinograph design criteria

The primary factor guiding your technical choices should be the type of user you aim to serve.

For an $8,000 machine, your target audience won’t be an individual with just a few family films to digitize, nor will it be a large-scale digitization lab. Your approach is more akin to designing a Toyota than a BMW—practical, accessible, and reliable.

Regarding the film formats the Kinograph should support, you seem to be focusing on 16mm and 35mm. However, these represent only a small fraction of the market. The vast majority of films in need of digitization are in Super 8 format (80%), followed by 8mm (~10%), with the remaining share split between 16mm and a small percentage of 35mm and 9.5mm. Additionally, sound films make up perhaps only 20% of this total.

Given these numbers, does it really make sense to limit the machine’s capabilities to just 16mm and 35mm?

One of the most significant costs—and logistical challenges—is shipping parts. What’s terribly expensive and requires a huge infrastructure is shipping of the large parts of the chassis and motors. Instead of including all components in a single shipment, why not allow customers to source commercially available parts themselves? You could provide them with a detailed list of required components, including shop recommendations and part numbers.

The same principle could apply to 3D-printed parts, if needed. By offering print-ready files, customers could produce them on their own, or you could offer pre-printed parts as an optional add-on.

People love kits. Give them the opportunity to get hands-on by providing well-structured, detailed instructions to guide them through the process. That’s the beauty of a fully modular design—flexibility, accessibility, and user empowerment.

Where do these numbers come from? Because they’d don’t align with what we see (professional scanning service). We do a lot of high resolution home movie scanning, but our primary business is for independent filmmakers, film libraries, film archives, universities, etc. If you take larger gauges like 35mm out of the equation, the small gauge film is split roughly 50/50 - 8/S8 vs 16mm. We’re in the US, so while we can do 9.5, 17.5, 28mm on our scanner, they’re rare here and we don’t do them often enough for them to factor in.

But I’d like to see some citations on those numbers because that’s nothing like the breakdown we see.

1 Like